Topic | 120 VAC Does not work

Home Forums Mooshimeter Support 120 VAC Does not work

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    • #14961 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Recently took delivery of a Moosimeter.
      Running Android App 1.0.29 (2017)
      Bundled Firmware version 1467155160
      Downloaded Firmware version 1477971089

      DC Voltage for 1.5 Volt batteries appears to work fine.

      I attempted to measure and Log 120 VAC from the wall outlet using both a homemade lead set with a standard 2 prong plug and the supplied Leads.

      Unable to get anything above 27 Volts, Frequency does not appear to detect.

      I did have to replace the batteries to get the Firmware update to finally take.
      Any suggestions?

    • #14963 Reply
      Anonymous
      Guest

      Did you increase the sample rate?

      Have a look at the following thread.

      How to measure 230V AC?

    • #14965 Reply
      admin
      Keymaster

      Hi Jfoj,

      Andreas might be right about the sample rate and buffer depth. But if those are set correctly and your measurements are still wrong, can you ensure that the meter is in the correct measurement range? Auto-ranging is disabled in logging, so make sure you have the correct voltage range set manually when you start the log.

    • #14968 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thanks for the prompt responses.

      I thought I had actually changed the Sampling Rate values to Auto, but maybe not both of them at the same time.

      I have since read the linked thread and set the Sampling Rares and Voltage to Auto and now the AC Voltage appears to be reading properly.

      Granted this is a slightly more sophisticated multimeter, I have MANY years using Fluke, HP, Techtronix, R&S, ExTech and other test equipment to include multimeters, scope meters, Oscilloscopes, Spectrum Analyzers and so forth.

      While I appreciate the flexibility of this meter, I do agree that the UI needs some work and since this is a networked item it can be easily updated.

      I would think that by default the settings on the App should start out as Auto. Because this meter/App has sampling rate options, I think this need to make more obvious on the UI. I originally thought the Hz value was for Frequency Measurement, so this may have thrown me off.

      I assume this meter is a work in progress so as development continues, hopefully many of these items can be addressed. I also feel that the lack of Defaults at least for the sampling rate could be dangerous for the end user when dealing with higher Voltage AC mains power. Without the proper meter settings if the AC Voltage cannot be detected and properly displayed, this could be a big safety problem. Kind of surprised this system was able to be fully approved when this App allows incorrect measurements by default.

      Some other features I would like to see if they can be supported.

      1. Actual Frequency Measurements if it can be supported.
      2. Offer a optional high current shunt for high current AC or DC measurements
      3. I have not looked at the Log output yet, but a real time clock would be a helpful item if this is not already part of the meter.
      4. Options for using external AC or DC current clamps where the menu will give users selectable/adjustable Amps/milliVolt type of reference so a “direct” output reading can be observed rather than having to mentally convert for the Amp reading.
      5. Unclear if this device would be able to provide waveforms like a scope meter, would be nice if the App could support this type of feature.
      6. Not sure if the Log is in a .CSV formwat on the MicroSD card. I see there is a web link for uploading the file form the MicroSD car for graphing. I have not used this feature yet.
      7. Offering a Max, Min, Average, feature.
      8. Offering a App display that will over a Peak Max, Peak Min and Live reading combined in a single display.
      9. Offering colors for Positive or Negative Voltage or Current Values.
      10. Have a tone to indicate a change in value. Maybe different tones for an increase in value and a decrease in value.
      11. Offering threshold Alarms that would give an audible alert, then maybe a flashing Max or Min threshold value so at a glance you can see the latest threshold levels.
      12. Offering some form of dB, dBm, dBW measurements if possible.
      13. Ability to measure or display AC ripple on a DC measurement.
      14. Graphing on Android, either I am clueless or this is train wreck. Is there a way to show the RMS value of an AC Voltage measurement? I see while graphing the 120 Volts from the wall outlet the Graph appears to be more of an oscilloscope output with the peak Voltage of around +/- 160 Volts, which I understand, but no RMS value displayed on the graph and no line graph over time so I can easily see RMS value variations over minute or hours.
      15. Graphing to me allows things like Reference Display Lines, Markers for measurements, Marker Peak, Marker Min, Marker Delta and so forth.

      Do not get me wrong, I think this device has a lot of great possibilities and it is in the early stages, but I would hope this many of these features might be considered in future releases of the App and incorporated into future updates.

      I am currently Logging and will learn about what I can do once I get the Log file copied to my computer and then uploaded for plotting out.

      I also have Logger Pro which I will try to work with the file from the meter if it is in a useful format.

      Again, I have less than 1 hour playing with this so far, much more to explore and learn about.

      Keep up the good work.

      J

      Just a few ideas off the top of my head, I have not spent much time with this device yet.
      3.

    • #14972 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      > I have not spent much time with this device yet.

      That’s obvious. ;-)

      But you should do so! Not only with the device but also with this website. Then some points of your long, long whish list will turn out to be obsolete, and others will be recognized as already listed in the project’s todo list.

      I even suggest to read the whole blog from the early beginnings up to now (as I did) – it’s not only a very interesting story, it also helps to understand your mooshimeter and the ideas behind it much better.

      > 4. Options for using external AC or DC current clamps where the menu will give users selectable/adjustable Amps/milliVolt type of reference so a “direct” output reading can be observed rather than having to mentally convert for the Amp reading.

      I would agree to that, but in a more generic manner. As it seems impossible to consider all possible external sensors and devices, I suggest a flexible concept of some (say, 10 or 16) user-definable and -nameable “profiles” where free math conversion formulas (and/or even filenames of user-stored lookup tables) can be entered and saved. The already existing temperature conversions could then be made a (pre-defined) part of this concept.

    • #14974 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I tend to approach the world head on and expect things to be rather intuitive and easy to use without spending hours researching and reading reams of documentation. I tend to find this is also how and why I can easily find holes and bugs in things. Like the problem with the ability to properly detect and measure AC Voltage. This is really something that needs to be addressed within the App.

      As for the other features, not sure if there is a master wish list of how possible features are tracked. I deal with a lot of different products and some do have online feature requests, if there is a specific location, I will post the information in the appropriate location.

      I am sure there is a reason this product was developed and it took a lot of effort and time and now that the Version 1 hardware is released, hopefully effort can be spent on the App and features.

      Hopefully the graphing/logging will be very powerful and flexible. I find SO many products come up SO short when it comes to graphing and logging. Usually this is due to the developers not being end user and understanding how the end users operate and the information and graphing/logging that is needed.

      I agree that user presets are very useful, save time and increase accuracy of data that is gathered. Regarding the current probe or other accessory scaling, I think there may be a pretty standardized way many of these accessories output data and these can be “canned” or pre-configured, but then also giving the end user the option to configure and scale as required would also be helpful.

      I am also thinking that there may need to be 2 different user interface options like a Basic user interface that limits what the operator can adjust, see and has most defaults to Auto and a more Advanced user interface that allows more flexibility for the end user. A device like this needs to consider basic safety for measuring and reading simplicity right out of the box because the issue of incorrect high Voltage AC display could end up deadly at some point!

      I have a number of interfaces that provide pressure, temperature, current, wind speed and so forth. Most of these interfaces output in milliVolts/per unit. So having the ability to quickly and easily configure proper unit display is very helpful and convenient.

      I think this device has a lot of potential and this is why I purchased it. I also have some very specific applications I would like to use this device for and will hopefully be able to not only make suggestions, but also Beta test and provide feedback.

      I need to spend more time with the device and on the forum to understand the how’s and why’s as well as the what if’s. There will clearly be some limitations within the current hardware, however, the flexibility of the App is where this item can really shine.

      Hopefully as time permits I will learn the ins and outs of the device and be able to provide more detailed feedback and suggestions.

      j

    • #14980 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      > A device like this needs to consider basic safety for measuring and reading simplicity right out of the box because the issue of incorrect high Voltage AC display could end up deadly at some point!

      Hm. Hm! If this is an “issue”, then primarily of the operator, not the instrument, I think. ;-)

      Since my long gone childhood, I had to do with a lot of different measurement devices, starting from very simple moving coil multimeters up to electronic and autoranging ones. None of them was displaying AC voltage correctly if set to a DC range. (And I would never have even thought of expecting something like that.)

      Due to the nature of this application field, it was/is essential for my health and safety that I always know what I’m doing. There is much potential to do something fatally wrong, regardless of the instrument used, so a certain minimum of qualification and awareness is indispensable.

      But if this point should still be considered a real “issue”, then I would suggest to change one of two things (or even both):

      1.) An appropriate hint should be included in the safety instructions.

      2.) There should be no initial default setting like “Current DC” and Voltage DC” for the channels, so the user is forced to explicitly select the intended mode, and the channel displays should show something like “SELECT MODE” instead of digits until he did.

      Would that be fool-proof enough? ;-)

    • #14981 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I have to disagree with the issue being the operator or user issue.

      The problem has to do with the SAMPLING FREQUENCY AND SAMPLING RATE of the device when dealing with AC Voltage. Unless you fully understand the basics of how this tool and App work, this is not a standard item that most people have had to deal with.

      So from a SAFETY standpoint, at least when it comes to AC Voltage measurements there need to be fail safe defaults to protect the end user. This is why an electrical Proving unit is now part of certain testing and safety procedures.

      Sorry, but the AC Voltage detection problem, which is a PROBLEM is part of the basic system App and configuration and needs to be addressed.

      You cannot and should not expect every end user to fully understand how this specific tool captures and displays Voltages properly.

    • #14985 Reply
      admin
      Keymaster

      Hi jfoj and Manfred,

      Jfoj – wow that is quite a list! Thank you. Some of it is already in the app, some of it is on the list Manfred pointed to on github (https://github.com/mooshim/Mooshimeter-AndroidApp/issues), but I think the biggest thing you point out is that it’s not terribly obvious to the user when they left a manual setting in the sampling parameters and switch to a new measurement mode that might be distorted by the setting (like moving to voltage AC).

      I think I can address this by adding a warning when the sampling parameters do not match the measurement mode. I don’t want to take away user’s control of sampling parameters, but you’re not the first person to be tripped up on this issue, so I will try to address it.

      Best
      ~James

    • #14986 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I appreciate your effort on this.

      I still think the trap with AC Voltage measurement should and can be addressed by changing the Default Sampling parameters to Auto when in AC Voltage mode.

      This would not take anything away from the end user, they still have the ability to make changes, but if the changes are out of range for the specific frequency/Voltage, then a Warning should probably pop up and/or the boxes turn color/flash and/or give an audible beep of some sort.

      I probably have 20 or so different multimeters on hand hand have used these for years, but the Sampling parameters are not typically something an end user has needed to understand and deal with. Granted this gives this tool additionally flexibility, but at the same time it can lead to inaccurate measurements which at best could lead someone to a wrong diagnosis or equipment set up and at worst cause someone unintended injury.

      I am not trying to be overly difficult here, I have PLENTY of years working with test equipment and high Voltage AC/DC, but I have never run into a piece of test equipment that has led me astray so easily and I am clearly not the only one this has happened to.

      I clearly know how to switch between settings and how properly connect test leads, this is not the issue, it is the way the App is set up. The great part about this type of device it can easily be updated and changed.

      So far I have only been using my Android for the interface, I will install the App in one of the iProducts laying around here and see if there is a big difference between the UI a this point.

      Unclear if the UI’s are identical or if one platform is a priority over the other.

      I have high hopes for this device and plan on using it primarily in for Auto related projects, but will have other uses for the device as well.

      For example using Team Viewer to remotely connect to the device that is using the App from a much longer distance than BT will allow. Say across town or across the country!

      J

    • #14989 Reply
      Anonymous
      Guest

      I still think the trap with AC Voltage measurement should and can be addressed by changing the Default Sampling parameters to Auto when in AC Voltage mode.

      This is difficult and addresses the complex question, how a user interface should work. Not every user want to see automatic intervention and changes of parameters, triggered by other actions. It’s possible, that a user want to have a fixed sampling rate when measuring AC. Another point is, what should happen with the sampling rate, when the user switches back from AC Voltage (stay or switch back)? Switch back means the former parameter must be stored (at the mooshimeter, not the app).

    • #14996 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I guess some people do not understand. It is NOT complex, it is VERY simple. Look at the majority of the main stream Voltmeters, most of the features are defaulted to Auto. In many situations it is very easy for a user to switch from Auto mode to manual mode(s) depending on the situation.

      The PROBLEM here is the Mooshimeter has options for Sampling rate which is not the norm for mainstream users. Without fully understanding the inner workings of the meter, the sampling rate may or may not mean something to the end user.

      The problem is in the App there is NO reference to the Hz value, I originally assume this was for Frequency and had nothing to do with the Sampling Rate.

      What is SO difficult to DEFAULT some of the settings to Auto???? As a end user you can take any of the settings and manually change them. I see NO negative is this approach and I fail to see how and why people would be against this approach.

      As I sit here playing with my Android App on my tablet. I find that for my requirements ALL settings are currently set to Auto and things appears to be operating as expected.

      Seems really simple, especially for safety reasons that the App/Meter should default to Auto unless the user intervenes and changes a parameter from Auto to Manual. The settings could also have an option to default to Auto or the last user setting.

      This really becomes a safety issue more than a user convenience from my point of view.

      J

    • #14999 Reply
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you, but I don’t get it.

      I just tried to provoke a situation with your “issue” of wrong AC readings, but I couldn’t – provided the measuring mode is adequately set to “VOLTAGE AC” (as said).

      If I naively try to measure mains voltage (~230 V AC here) with all settings at their defaults (that is, wrongly “VOLTAGE DC” selected), then of course I get a nonsense reading of something like 19.xxx V or so (while sampling is auto-set to 125 Hz / 64smpl). But if I switch to the correct mode “VOLTAGE AC”, the sampling automatically changes to 4000 Hz / 256smpl, and the correct voltage is displayed immediately.

      This is surprisingly even the case when logging is active. Although we have been told that autoranging is disabled while logging, the sampling rate seems to be still automatically adapted if left in the default setting “AUTO”, thus ensuring correct measuring.

      So I really can’t see your problem. (But it’s not important, maybe others can.)

      —————–

      BTW, it’s somewhat offtopic in this context, but I found another real strangeness (if not a bug) during the above test: If I set CH1 to “INTERNAL TEMPERATURE” while CH2 is wrongly set to “VOLTAGE DC”, then in the moment 230 V AV is connected, CH1 stops displaying temperature and changes falsely to “OUT OF RANGE”. If I switch CH2 to “VOLTAGE AC”, CH1 goes back to normal temperature display. WHY? It’s very irritating that CH1 is influenced by things happening on CH2. Shouldn’t both channels behave completely independent?

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